Blockchain
When he’s not engaged on hastening humanity’s rush towards the Singularity by creating a man-made basic intelligence (AGI), Ben Goertzel performs in a jazz-rock band known as Jam Galaxy fronted by a robotic named Desdemona.
It’s one among his many aspect initiatives, which naturally led him to attempt to tokenize the music enterprise by reaching out to members of Pearl Jam and Coronary heart. Goertzel can be engaged on longevity analysis by crowdsourcing human well being information with token rewards by way of an app known as Rejuve.ai. That info is then pooled with animal and bug research information and analyzed with an AI to find out which components of the genomes could make us stay longer after which stimulated utilizing gene therapies. “We’ve had some fairly hanging breakthrough-level discoveries,” he says. Oh, and simply earlier than our hour-long interview winds up, he casually mentions as an apart that he’s additionally making a stablecoin for his decentralized AI market, Singularity.web, that’s pegged to an artificial index of environmental progress — as a result of pegging it to U.S. {dollars} can be “lame.”
“Progress on the setting may be very steady. It by no means goes anyplace,” he factors out.
“And to control this, it’s important to truly remedy world warming.”
It’s the precise type of political remark meets high-tech know-how you would possibly count on from Goertzel, who seems to be and appears like a hippie scientist who stumbled right into a time machine in 1971 and emerged totally fashioned in 2023. However don’t be fooled by the animal print hat, lengthy hair and Electrical Kool-Support acid journey drawl: He’s an excellent scientist with a grasp of the longer term mild years forward of most and who’s grappling with a number of the greatest ideas humanity has ever thought of. What’s consciousness? How can we create synthetic life, and what occurs if it doesn’t like us, goes rogue, and weapons all people down like in Terminator 2?

Ben Goertzel (left) and Jam Galaxy fronted by Desdemona the Robotic (second left).
What’s synthetic basic intelligence?
Goertzel popularized the time period “synthetic basic intelligence” as a method to differentiate a real pondering machine that would study just about something, to AIs which are optimized for one specific process, just like the Deep Blue laptop that famously beat world chess champion Garry Kasparov. He freely concedes there are dangers in constructing a machine that’s able to studying something and every little thing, together with find out how to reprogram itself to grow to be an order of magnitude extra clever than any human.
“There’s quite a lot of dangers and risks with AGI,” says Goertzel over the din at an Indian restaurant in a busy purchasing heart in Singapore. “Considered one of them that’s gotten lots of media consideration is that AGI will run amok and annihilate humanity and take over the universe. It’s fully doable; you possibly can’t rule it out,” he says.
“One other extra possible danger is that nasty egocentric individuals will use AI to exert their very own greed and management over different individuals.”
In his view, governments are unlikely to make breakthroughs in AGI as they’re “too conservative and silly,” although he notes China contracts out its AGI work to firms like Tencent and Baidu. Nearer to dwelling, he thinks Google and Fb’s AI divisions received’t recover from the road both, as they’ll be too centered on making the AI hit sure metrics, which isn’t conducive to artistic thought.
“Identical to essentially the most good individuals don’t wish to merely serve another person’s metrics, I feel synthetic basic intelligence doesn’t essentially wish to maximize click-through on somebody’s internet web page both, proper? It’s obtained to be allowed to mess around creatively.”

Deal with your AGI properly or it’ll finish in tears. Supply: Terminator 2
The Singularity circa 1970
Goertzel began college at 15, graduated at 18, had a doctorate by 22 and a younger household by 23. Maybe unusually nowadays, he wasn’t only a math whiz or tech genius who soldered package computer systems collectively within the ‘70s however was equally concerned about philosophy, artistic writing and music.
He spent a lot of his profession instructing and researching laptop science, arithmetic and cognitive science at numerous universities across the globe whereas engaged on AI tech each time he might. A serial founder who tends to be a couple of decade forward of everybody else together with his concepts — which, in enterprise, famously equates to being improper — he’s labored on utilizing AI to foretell monetary markets and longevity, and he’s additionally had a stint because the chief scientist of Hanson Robotics, the place he gave Sophia the Robotic her synthetic mind.
Completely satisfied new yr expensive #SingularityNET group! Thanks on your ongoing help ❤️@DesdemonaRobot from @TheJamGalaxy has a particular message for each one among you. The Singularity is not going to be centralized!
Have a fantastic 2023 ??✨? pic.twitter.com/jhYzM0gKBz— SingularityNET (@Singularity_NET) January 1, 2023
Goertzel’s been interested by exponential technological progress for the reason that Nineteen Seventies when he first learn Gerald Feinberg’s The Prometheus Undertaking, which is about “machines that may assume higher than individuals… nanotechnology machines which are microscopically small, and we’re going to resolve growing older.” This dovetailed properly with the rising idea of the Singularity, a hypothetical future level when technological advances grow to be uncontrollable and irreversible, leading to large adjustments to human civilization.

A tattered copy of The Prometheus Undertaking. Supply: Web Archive
“So, individuals will stay ceaselessly, then the query shall be, What can we use these applied sciences for, fast senseless consumerism, or can we use it to develop consciousness? And what he [Feinberg] proposed is to place that to a democratic vote.”
Years later, when he started to see AGI was inside our grasp, this “democratic vote” grew to become the inspiration to first use open-source expertise and, afterward, blockchain as a method to put a cooperative group in control of the expertise.
“What I noticed at a sure level is, with AI, having the code open isn’t sufficient,” he says. “You actually need to coach the AI on a shitload of knowledge.”
“That is the place blockchain comes as a method to make the processing and the info underlying AI decentralized and crowdsourced in nature and open in management. And that seems to be trickier than simply open-sourcing the code.”
Goertzel based OpenCog in 2008 to construct an open-source, crowd-sourced synthetic intelligence framework. It’s been utilized by 50 firms, together with Huawei and Cisco, and is ready for a serious improve quickly known as Hyperon that goals to speed up it by 200 instances. The alpha model is due this quarter with the beta anticipated subsequent yr.
Blockchain is fundamental however cool
To Goertzel, blockchain expertise is slightly fundamental. He describes it as some primitive distributed algorithms added to cryptography, however the “cool mixture” permits methods to run with out centralized management, making it excellent for his wants.
“If you’ll make a pondering machine and you’ll make it distributed nanoscale computing cloth, it will be very good if this was owned by everybody and nobody reasonably than managed prime down.”
Blockchains are far too gradual to take care of the processing necessities and large volumes of knowledge concerned, so there’s one thing of a race to correctly scale blockchain earlier than a breakthrough AGI is developed. Goertzel says that whereas scaling options corresponding to zero-knowledge rollups are higher, they nonetheless don’t have sufficient bandwidth as a result of limitations of the blockchain to which they report transactions.
He co-founded Singularity.web in 2017, which is each a decentralized market for AI companies and expertise and a blockchain-based coordination methodology for researchers — and even AIs — to work collectively.
Presently, based mostly on Ethereum, he thinks he’s pushed issues about so far as they will go on blockchain in its present type. So, when he’s not engaged on a breakthrough in AGI (or the band, or robots, or longevity), he’s engaged on massively scaling blockchain to provide it the throughput required.
“Until you possibly can radically improve the scalability of blockchain, you possibly can’t put the interior workings of the AI on-chain.”
My dad @tedgoertzel dug up this clipping from 1961 (5 yrs pre-me) when he was co-chair of SLAM, the Pupil League Towards Mortality, a pupil org w/ purpose of abolishing dying. Even had some proto-Kurzweilian quantitative trend-forecasting in there! Early roots of @Rejuve_AI pic.twitter.com/ZD7ycEGRum
— Ben Goertzel (@bengoertzel) December 24, 2022
AI is nearer than you assume
2022 was one thing of a breakthrough yr for working merchandise based mostly on AI expertise, together with language functions (GPT-3, ChatGPT), coding (GitHub Copilot) and picture technology (DALL-E and Steady Diffusion). Bing even plans to tackle Google’s search dominance this yr by incorporating ChatGPT tech into its search engine.
Goertzel thinks an AGI might be as little as 5 years away and notes developments within the subject appear to go in brief three- or four-year bursts in a collection of breakthroughs.
“Pc Imaginative and prescient began in 2014, after which swiftly, bang, bang, bang, the thriller was solved. Pure language processing… after Google got here up with the Bert mannequin (in 2018) you had GPT-3. You’ll most likely see the identical arc of progress in AGI. You’ll have one breakthrough, then a substantial amount of progress for 2 years,” he stated.
“The distinction being the breakthrough progress, in that case, leads to a machine that may then proceed to progress itself by rewriting its personal code.”
Goertzel hopes the initiatives and collaborations he’s set in movement might be the way it happens.
“If we’re fortunate, we’ll obtain that breakthrough within the subsequent three to 5 years with OpenCog Hyperon working on Singularity.web working on Hypercycle,” he says. “But when we don’t end up to have the key sauce, any person else will.”

Journal caught up with Ben Goertzel in Singapore. Supply: Andrew Fenton
Pity Vitalik wasn’t a pc scientist
Goertzel’s resolution to scaling the blockchain is fairly radical and includes turbo-charging a sidechain or layer 2 of Cardano known as “HyperCyle.”
“It truly is greater than a sidechain. HyperCycle will cooperate with Ethereum and different blockchains as properly, however we’re gonna use the Plutus interpreter there, however we’re eliminating the ledger.”
He has described HyperCycle on-line as fixing the “blockchain trilemma” of “decentralization vs. safety vs. efficiency by eliminating the ledger and utilizing extra fashionable/totally decentralized algos and information constructions, plus a little bit of AI and popularity methods.”
The ledger is on the coronary heart of blockchain tech, however he says getting each node within the community to copy every transaction and course of each good contract is ludicrously inefficient.
“The ledger is simply unhealthy. If you consider it, if you consider the analogy of your contacts in your phonebook, I imply, the ledger is like […] retaining 10,000 copies of Yellow Pages, and also you’re updating them each time somebody new comes or if any person adjustments their cellphone quantity. It’s actually silly to replace 10,000 copies of the Yellow Pages.”
Within the HyperCycle model of the analogy, as an alternative of everybody storing and updating the Telephone book, the individuals in your contact guide retailer a duplicate of your deal with guide, and vice versa, encrypted together with your personal key.
“We found out find out how to make blockchain work and not using a replicating ledger, so to shard all the way in which down. Each particular person engaged within the blockchain retains their very own transaction historical past and retains the transaction historical past of their associates and a few of their associates’ associates,” he says.
“Sharding all the way in which down, you don’t want a ledger — you don’t want a database desk. These items are method too centralized.”
He says some proof-of-concept HyperCycle nodes are already operational, however a full-scale launch received’t occur till the second half of 2024.
We spend a very long time discussing the varied deserves of various approaches to blockchain, from Web Pc to Elastos and Celestia, a lot of which is above my pay grade and past the potential of my recording machine to precisely seize in a loud restaurant.
He concludes by saying, “So, I simply really feel like none of those architectures are radical sufficient. They’re all sticking too near Bitcoin.”
“So long as you’re working each good contract on each node, I imply, it’s going to be insanely gradual. Now, in HyperCycle, should you run a sensible contract on 5 nodes, a minimum of it’s solely 5 instances as gradual as on one machine — it’s not 10,000 instances slower.”
Completely satisfied holidays from us at jamgalaxy! @bigpeyYT @bengoertzel @diannekrouse #Cardano #AI #musicplatform @Singularity_NET pic.twitter.com/8Hj6H26K7N
— Jam Galaxy (@TheJamGalaxy) December 11, 2022
Why Cardano, then?
Goertzel has grow to be pleasant with Cardano founder Charles Hoskinson, with the pair bonding over their initiatives in Africa. He believes Hoskinson is “genuinely on the market to avoid wasting the world. I imply, politically he’s extra of a hardcore libertarian than I’m — I’m extra of an anarcho-socialist — however he isn’t simply in it to earn a living or fleece different individuals out of their cash.”
However the true attraction of Cardano is that it makes use of the Haskell programming language, which Goertzel has been a fan of since 1993. It pains him drastically that Ethereum co-founder Vitalik Buterin went with Gavin Wooden’s good contract programming language Solidity.
“If solely Vitalik had identified extra laptop science, he would have made them use Haskell or F Sharp or one thing, and there’d be far fewer hacks of the blockchain,” he says.
“Should you’re going to be working many of the world’s economic system, buying and selling trillions of {dollars} on some software program system, you’ll be higher off to construct that software program system in a language that’s not susceptible to bugs and the place your algorithms will be formally verified utilizing a mathematical principle. It’s simply the suitable method to do issues.”
Cease-gap resolution
Irrespective of how briskly blockchain will get, as quickly because the AGI is an order of magnitude smarter and extra succesful than people are, Goertzel says it’s not going to let anybody management it.
“When an AGI is 100 instances smarter than individuals, it doesn’t wish to be managed by us, as we wouldn’t be managed by a chimpanzee or a donkey, proper?”
“Then I might say the query isn’t one among us controlling it, the query is: Is it properly disposed to us? Will it let individuals regulate their very own enterprise and provide us with cool instruments and nano assemblers to 3D print all of the stuff that we wish and treatment our illnesses?”
“However the transition interval when the AGI is across the identical intelligence as individuals, that’s when issues are extra sensitive and extra attention-grabbing. And the query is then: Does the AGI wish to cooperate with individuals? Or is it paranoid and desires to manage individuals earlier than they destroy it?”
Nothing to see right here only a robotic canine with a machine gun being dropped by a drone…pic.twitter.com/3jfwbnJMnk
by way of @EvanKirstel #robotic #robotics #Army #AI @SpirosMargaris @mvollmer1 @jblefevre60 @Nicochan33 @Shi4Tech @PawlowskiMario @labordeolivier @FrRonconi @Fabriziobustama— Jeroen Bartelse (@JeroenBartelse) November 1, 2022
Educate your kids properly
In Goertzel’s opinion, the answer is to show the AGI about caring for others and about creativity and artwork. That’s the place Desdemona the Robotic in his band, and her sister Grace — who’s designed to offer elder care — are available in.
The way in which you keep away from an AGI turning into Terminator’s Skynet is to not construct it that method within the first place.
“Skynet, in fact, within the film was a pc safety community that ran amok. It was created to defend itself towards individuals,” he says.
“However should you construct the primary AGI to do with elder care and artistic arts and training because it will get smarter, it is going to be oriented towards serving to individuals and creating cool stuff. Should you construct the primary AGI to kill the unhealthy guys… maybe it’s going to maintain doing these issues.”
“So, useful or not, it actually comes all the way down to what functions you’ve developed and what you’ve incentivized for.”
He believes that placing AIs into robotic our bodies is useful as a result of it helps situate them in the true world, reasonably than some summary mathematical universe.

Sophia the Robotic has her personal metaverse platform launching quickly. (Supply: Sophiaverse)
“AI ought to study concerning the human world and the bodily world. Being embodied on the planet is the suitable method to try this,” he says.
However when he presents Sophia the Robotic to an enormous viewers, the visible and auditory sensors will be simply overwhelming, complicated the AI in a loud and shiny setting. So, Sophia shall be launching quickly within the metaverse, known as Sophiaverse. Overlook ChatGPT’s boring text-based solutions, Sophia is embodied in a 3D digital world, and he or she’ll study from interacting with individuals there. Nevertheless, he cautions she most likely will say some dumb issues.
“It has a neural web much like GPT-3 and so forth, which have vital facility to reply your questions, however they’re additionally fairly silly in some methods.”
ChatGPT is unimaginable! pic.twitter.com/OPobybHLQF
— Bojan Tunguz (@tunguz) December 26, 2022